Interview Under the Kamniske Alps with Reverent
Father France Spelic

• Reverent Father Smaverski when you were writing your autobiography, "I Will Return to the Father" (Vrnil se bom k Ocetu), Celje 1990, finishing the story of your youth, being a partisan, a policeman, a teacher, of your conversion - there was inner desire to become a priest...

First I wanted to become a permanent deacon. Archbishop Pogacnik understood my yearning and he presented this wish at the Conference of Bishops of Yugoslavia. Even though he was very optimistic he did not succeed.

There were no permanent deacons in Yugoslavia at that time. Yes, when I was writing the book that you mentioned, I started to dream about becoming a priest. To become a priest! Offer a single Holy Mass! How could I dare to hope for something like this?

I was forty years old, married and I only had completed five years of theological studies.

• What were you hoping to do in your life in the future, when you were finishing your theological studies?

To serve my wife, that became ill (she was bedridden for 20 years after her illness started) to take care of the house, the orchard and my bee hives.

• But the book of your life was opening into some new equally dramatic and unexpected chapter, into communicating with the world of the invisible. There came about some mysterious prophecy. In Medjugorje, am I right?

Yes, it happened in Medjugorje.

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• By the way have you always believed that Medjugorje was true, even if there were doubts and even resistance of the Church hierarchy in the pre-war Yugoslavia?

When I went in 1987 for the first time to Medjugorje, I was more like a tourist not like a pilgrim, sort of neutral, undecided about the visions. When I went there for the second time look what has happened to me.

At that time the visionaries of Medjugorje were meeting in the sacristy on the right side of the church.

Out of pure curiosity I wanted to know how that place looked on the inside.

I wanted to enter. As soon as I stepped over the threshold with one leg, I started to cry uncontrollably, and I could not understand why.

I was neither sorrowful nor happy. I was totally indifferent, yet I could not do anything to stop the uncontrollable crying.

I was crying like that alone in that place until my crying calmed down. After that I went outside and when I was about to meet another pilgrim from my bus, I looked away from him in order to hide my crying.

The tension was there for the following two hours and I was hiding from other pilgrims from my bus, so that they would not see my face. I have to say that already in the sacristy when I started to cry, I said to myself, “Mary, so here you were waiting for me!”

On April 1988 on that rocky hill, which is called Crnica, I encountered the next moving experience. At this place of the first apparition pilgrims dispersed and I remained by myself.

All of a sudden when I was standing there, I heard strong male voice. I stress that it was a male voice. He said, “You will find the metal of the Mother of God, the crucifix and a part of the rosary. At that time a new era of your life will start.” Other pilgrims did not hear the voice.

On June 10, 1988 right there in the brush of Crnica, I had the next experience. It was about 50 meters beyond the cross, at 9:50 in the morning.

Even then some pilgrims wanted to share their problems with me. I was sitting on a rock when they were coming to me.

After the last pilgrim left, I started to thank God and to pray for all these people.

All of the sudden I saw there a little crucifix and part of the rosary on the ground. I can show it to you, it is blackened as you see. I wanted to throw it away, when I realized, this is a crucifix, which I can not just throw away. So, I put it into my shirt pocket. I do not know what happened to me after that. Without knowing, I fell down and I saw Mary.

She was floating above the bush.

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• Forgive me for the next question, since I know that there is no answer for it. How did Mary look like?

I can not describe her well enough. I can not answer this question.

Even if I was an artist or sculptor, I would not be able to paint or sculpture her image.

I can tell you that this was an experience of unimaginable joy. This was a combination of a visual image, the feeling of the presence of God, and the voice of the Lady.

When I regained consciousness I realized that I was lying on the ground and crying uncontrollably because of joy.

Other pilgrims already left. They were gathering at the bus in front of the church and were waiting for me. Three pilgrims came to look for me and they thought I had a heart attack because I have a heart problem.

They were already talking about getting a stretcher for me. “Leave me alone, leave me in peace, I saw Mary,” I told them. I sat up on a rock.

On the way back to the bus, I passed the bush that Mary was floating above in my vision. I spotted a pendant chain on one of the branches. It was not simply hanging but was wound around the branch and pinned at the end.

That is why it did not look like someone lost it. But he or she wound it on the branch on purpose. When I was holding the chain, I concluded that it was made of gold because of its weight. I became worried; it was not mine and I did not know what to do with it. I looked into the sky and thought, God, please tell me through the first priest that I meet what am I to do with this chain.

There was a priest, a Franciscan, waiting to hear confessions next to the Church, when I arrived there.

I went to him and asked, “Do you speak Slovenian or Croatian?” “Croatian,” he answered.

I asked him what should I do with this chain that I found on Crnica. “Brother keep it to remind you of Our Lady,” he answered.

When I went to Medjugorje the fourth time, I had a vision of Mary at the same place. Because of problems with my legs, I walked with a cane. In the other had I was carrying my bag. When I had a vision, I was thrown on the rocks.

The cane fell on one side and the bag on the other side. When I regained consciousness and wanted to pick up the cane, I saw a small metal object. It was this.

I said to another pilgrim, “take a look to see what that is on the ground.” She picked up the object. “A figurine of the Sacred Heart of Jesus,” she said.

Neither the figurine nor the chain, do I see as being important. These were just fond memories. The crucifix is important to me because it was foretold.

• What has helped you to believe that the visions were true? Did you always believe?

Always, except when I was in Medjugorje for the first time. The following year when I had the first vision, I lost all my doubts. At that time Mary said to me, “Be peaceful, Dunja (my little granddaughter that passed away) is with me as she is praying for you all. If you love the priestly vocation, you will become a priest.”

I was told this in 1989, four years before my wife passed away. She died in 1993. I have to admit that Mary’s prediction did not make me particularly happy.

I became anxious and worried, how can I become a priest at my age and as a married man? Later I felt guilty because of my doubt. I felt that I was offending Our Lady…

• In your autobiography you were telling about the circumstances of your studies, how you as a night guard in the factory were driving afterward to Ljubljana to the Theological College. How did your wife look upon your endeavors to study theology and your interest in spirituality?

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I started to study at the College of Theology in the fall of 1969. My wife still lived for another 25 years. She was neither against my studies nor my interest in spirituality... We agreed in everything.

• How did you feel among the young seminarians and professors? Did they accept you? Were they suspicious because of your past as a communist partisan?

At that time the communistic regime worked through their own provocateurs. So there must have been some mistrust. Later some of them admitted to me,

"We were suspicious of you and we did not trust you."

The fact that I did not live in the seminary had a greater impact on them on being suspicious of me. During the final examinations I stayed with the Franciscans.

Some of the schoolmates and professors trusted me from the beginning.

• Which field of theology was of special interest to you, dogma, Bible, or mysticism? Did you have any problems with your studies?

I was interested in dogma and especially the Bible. Because of Latin, I had problems with philosophy. The lectures were in Slovenian but the main thesis was in Latin and the professors were giving exams on the Latin thesis.

• Which professors do you fondly remember?

Very understanding professors were for example: Miklavcic, Strle, Janzekovic, and Aleksic. Once I went to apologize to professor Strle, because I did not master the material for the exam on time.

Our conversation about the material became kind of long.

"Do you have your record book for grades," he asked me. "I do," I said. "Give it to me you have passed the oral exam," he said.

The study of theology is one thing, to be ordained a priest is another.

• Was the path to ordination difficult? Was there a lot of resistance from others? From whom? How did the church hierarchy react to this?

Until after I was ordained a deacon and a priest, there was no problem. The criticisms started after that. The archbishop received many difficulties because of my ordinations.

Some people from my region of birth, Suha Krajina, came from Canada, three brothers and two sisters, they came to Slovenia and verbally attached me.

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• What was it all about ?

They were claiming that I either killed their father (as a communist partisan, <<comment from translator>>) or I know who the killer was.

"I do not know anything about your father, but that he was killed after the war, the guilty person I do not know," I was telling them repeatedly. I am sure that there was never such obsessive wild attacks or embarrassments in that room, in Javornik.

I woman who heard everything through the wall, asked, "This was a scourging, wasn't it?" She hinted that this attack was like my sufferings of the passion of the Lord.

I have to mention that two of the five individuals were not acting so badly. Any way the same thing happened to one of their relatives, they accused him of killing their father, also.

You asked me how the hierarchy reacted to my ordinations. The archbishop, Suster, liked me. I would like to thank him from my heart by being an example of a good shepherd, in this area that he appointed me a pastor. Bishop Lenic also liked me. He was consoling when the old archbishop, Pogacnik, was forgetful or blunt towards me.

When the seminarian, Jurak, (this tortured victim of the secret police, Udba) was ordained a priest (today he is a priest in Gosd pri Kamniku), Lenic said, "Now I'm waiting for Spelic to be ordained, also." At that time I was still married.

About a month before Bishop Lenic died, I and a friend of mine visited him. "I am waiting for Mary to come for me," he said from his bed in a saintly disposition...

I can tell you that I also had a vision about Bishop Stanko Lenic. I saw Mary floating above him, while he was in bed.

I was present when you said your first Holy Mass. The church at Brezje was filled to capacity. What were your experiences of that day? Or did you have a deeper experience at the ordination into priesthood at Bohinjska Bistrica?

The ordination was more important to me. I did not particularly wish for the festivities that are associated with the first mass. The ritual of the ordination had a deeper meaning for me, even though there were some enemies present.

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• Were you interested in working as a priest after your ordination? Where?

I had to be interested in that because the priest is there for people. I was working in Bohinjska Bistrica as a deacon already. There I had a good relationship with Father Fortuna.

People in that region have a hard time accepting a foreigner but when they accept, they accept him with the whole heart. Now they are coming to visit me by bus from Bohinj.

In Bohinjska Bistrica, there I experienced my spiritual development.

For two and half years, I prayed kneeling in front of the Holy Eucharist every Friday night, in the wintertime in the chapel and in the summer time in the church.

This was happening because of some strong inner desire. As a chaplain in Jesenice, I lived in an old house in Javornik.

There I lived in the apartment of a previous priest next to a very sick woman (invalid). It was a half an hour to my church, but I had a chapel in the house. There I was praying often at night.

• How was it in those nights of prayer in Bohinjska Bistrica?

The time went by very quickly. Those hours were short, to short.

• Did any special happening occur there?

One night, I felt the presence of Mary without realizing it at that time. At two o'clock in the morning in the chapel, there occurred a very strong fragrance that smelled like the fragrance of Forest Cyclamens.

I was alone in the chapel. Who would bring that splendid fragrance? I went to smell the flowers around the tabernacle. The fragrance did not come from there. It lasted for about a half an hour.

It disappeared just as fast as it appeared. I discovered that this fragrance meant the presence of Mary, years later far away from Bohinjska Bistrica on the twelfth station of the Stations of the Cross, on Krizevac above Medjugorje.

I was leading the Stations of the Cross on that rocky path for the pilgrims from my bus.

I was praying without following any conventional prayer. There I smelled the same fragrance as in the chapel in Bohinjska Bistrica. I fell unto my knees and started to cry. Nobody else smelled that fragrance. Pilgrims from my bus were astonished when I fell and cried.

I moved from Jesenice to Zalog. Already as a deacon I was receiving visitors from Slovenia.

Mostly foreigners are coming here, especially Germans, Austrians, Swiss, Belgians, Netherlanders, and Southern Tyrolians from Austria, also Italians from Gorica and Triest, lately also Croatians.

Until now only one Slovenian came from Gorica across the border in Italy.

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• How did they find out about you?

I have no idea. Never did I advertise myself. Until now at least 50 foreign priests came. Also many priests are under trials today, because of celibacy. Many fall.

• What do you think about celibacy?

Celibacy is a great grace.

• Did any Bishops visit you?

No, but I have had indirect contacts.

• Does any former partisan comrade visit you?

Yes, they come to see me as a priest, not as a former partisan. They want me to hear their confessions or to talk to them about spirituality.

Some contra-partisans, domobranci, and their former officers came to me for confessions.

Last year when I said a mass in Kocevski Rog, my guide was a former Domobranec, since I do not know my way in those forests.

My classmate in elementary school, Stanko Sustersic, that became a good friend of mine. If all the partisans and domobranci would reconcile as we did...

• If you would live in Italy reporters would be constantly hounding you, reporters of the liberal media instead of conservative Catholic media. Did Slovenian newspapers show any interest in you even if they still had communistic editors that were also very narrow-minded? Did you have people visiting you that wanted to undermine you?

The newspaper reporter, Mr. Lesar, from the newspaper Dnevnik wanted to write about me. I did not want to meet with him. I am against sensationalism.

There were no unfriendly visitors except for the Canadian family that I have already mentioned. 

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• A new chapter in your life, the most publicized, with new openness into the invisible, Kurescek. The church in the midst of the Dolenjska hills that was in ruins ten years ago is now beautifully renovated and is nowadays a pilgrimage site even for visitors of other countries.
  
  As a matter of fact Our Lady, from the message of January 4, 1997, expressed some disappointment over the lack of Slovenian pilgrims.

She said, "There were pilgrims from all continents here at Kurescek. There were more pilgrims from other countries than from Slovenia. Do you want to lose the blessings that you have already been receiving?"

• The renewed Kurescek is becoming a new Marian pilgrimage center in Slovenia along with the classical ones such as Brezje, Ptujska Gora, and Sveta Gora. How did this whole thing start?

Kurescek started in Medjugorje. On December 9, 1998 I had a vision again, when the Lady said to me,

"Son, love mine and the heart of my Son. Invite people and call their attention to seek refugee through mine heart and my Son's heart, so that they will find true peace that they so need. Renew my prayer at the forgotten and the abandoned place. I bless you."

The forgotten and abandoned place... I told this to the priest, Joze Razinger, who was a pastor at Koroska Bela, who was on a pilgrimage with us.

Immediately he said,

"Is this Kurescek?"

"Where is this?" I asked. I had never heard the name before.

"All I know is that it is a demolished church consecrated to Mary in the Dolenjska region," he replied.

Look, the very next day he went to look for Kurescek and the ruins of the old church.

This is how it started.

A month and half later on January 29, 1990, in a vision Mary asked me,

"Go to Kurescek, remain faithful to me, I am the Queen of Peace."

Ten days later on February 10, 1990 a group of eight to ten people including myself, mostly priests (we still have the names written down) went to Kurescek.

We arrived at the church ruins. Only part of the wall and the bell tower were still standing, the bell tower was burned because a few years ago there was a May 1st bonfire party. Next to the outer chapel, I fell onto the rocks without having any control over this. In this vision Mary said:

" I am the Queen of Peace, renew prayer at this place. Here meet with mine and my Son's Heart. Immediately put symbols of faith and prayer here. As soon as possible start with occasional masses, which should become regular. Build a temporary shelter so that the priest will be under a roof when saying mass. Here there will be devotions until you build a mission center and a church. Where I will be present as the Queen of Peace and give peace. This will be a place of grace, a place of healing spiritual illnesses and wounds. Whoever will come here in faith to seek refuge in mine and my Son's heart will be healed and receive peace, that only heaven can give. Daughters and Sons who are in the renewal movement (Prenova) make sure that I will not be alone on the first Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays of the month. Visit me on those days here and I will bless you. Love, Love, my heart is the path to it. Love each other! Love is stronger that Satan, who will be attacking you often. Be faithful and pray! I will be with you. Do not try to prove anything, leave that to me. Learn from the messages of Medjugorje. I bless you. Do not be afraid, the trials will be difficult. Pain is your teacher. I am with you. I bless you. "

• In a vision was it really foretold that there would be a new large church standing in the place of today's mountain inn?

Not at the place of the inn but two hundred meters toward the old rebuilt church, west of the inn, in a shallow valley.

The location and the church were both shown to me. When we walked along the gravel road, I was thrown onto the ground.

I saw Jesus who was holding the church on his head supporting it with both hands.

The church had three levels, symbolically representing three; in fact I saw it consecrated to the Holy Trinity. We prayed a Novena to Bishop Vovk in order to understand how the church should look like.

In the vision, Bishop Vovk was one of the four Bishop's standing at the corners of the church. The first one was Barga, the second Slomsek, the third Vovk, and the fourth was unknown, unrecognizable.

Also, in that vision on the gravel, she named herself, the Queen of Peace, also.

The old church that was built in the time of Turkish incursions on that hill, which is suitable for sending smoke signals (that is how it got its name), was originally consecrated to the Queen of Peace.

The only thing from the old church that was saved was a statue of Mary, which was kept at another location, Zelimlje, for forty-five years.

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• We can say that Kurescek is becoming a special place to Mary from where the graces flow over the border of Slovenia. Is it possible to say that there are special events taking place here like at other apparition sites that have visions, healings, and conversions?

I will not talk about occurrences of visions of others even if I could quote a very trustworthy witness. As far as the healings I will let the people who have been healed talk about them even though I know about them.

I can tell you about spiritual healings that I think are caused by the grace of God.

The first case I will give the title "The End of Alcohol Addiction." I am talking about a Slovenian from Carinthia, Austria who was hospitalized eight times but could not end his addiction.

Often he wanted to quit but could not. He fell into a delirious state. His wife talked him into going to Kurescek with her.

He promised that he would not drink anything on that day. He was drunk before the German mass started, so he was sitting on the floor, not on the chair but on the floor. I was hidden behind the altar during the service. After the mass ended, people started to go around the altar on their knees as an old pilgrim custom.

The man I am talking about crawled on all fours like an animal and his wife followed on her knees. When he came towards me, I had this inner urge to put my left leg forward and stop him. When I stopped him like that, I laid my hands on his head and prayed.

My prayer went like this, "Lord please free this man of the burden that he is carrying!"

Then, I let him go. His wife told me later that she was upset after this happened and she was saying,

"Why did that bearded man stop my husband so that we all had to wait." When I came out of the church, she pointed,

"This is the man."

About a year later I saw her at Kurescek again.

She called me and introduced herslef as the wife of that alcoholic and said, "Since that event my husband never had alcohol again."

Today after three years, he is still alcohol free. This lady comes to Kurescek as the translator for German pilgrims because I do not speak German. She confirmed that her husband did not have any craving for alcohol from that day on.

I will call the second case, "The End of Hatred."

Two sisters that lived in different regions of Slovenia (Prekmurje and Gorenjska) came to Kurescek with separate pilgrimage groups. They had not spoken to each other for twenty-eight years, because of a disagreement about an inheritance.

By chance they met at Kurescek and without saying anything fell into each other's arms and crying asked each other for forgiveness. Kurescek redeemed them from nearly thirty years of hatred.

The third case I will call, "Finding God."

A forty-year-old man without faith gave to his religious wife a ride to Kurescek. I was hearing confessions outside in the open.

He started to walk up and down where the line was forming for the confessions.

He was walking like that for a long time. He looked like a pendulum swinging back and forth, so that it started to go on my nerves. I almost felt like telling him to stop because he could have possibly overheard the confessions.

The man then stepped into the line and started weeping. He came to me and said, "I do not know what is happening to me. I have no faith but I could not walk away from you. I wanted to leave but could not. Tell me what is going on with me."

We talked about spirituality and I told him, "The grace of God visited you and crying is also a sign of the grace of God."

Eventually this man asked me, "Would you hear my confession?" He confessed from his school years on. The end of the mass occurred at the same time as his confession ended.

He complained, "I will not be able to get the communion now." There were six more people waiting for confession.

I consoled him; "Wait and I will give you the communion."

How else can this be but an act of grace at Kurescek.

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• In the examples you have given us, there are older people, that means people that have had a Christian upbringing. Christianity was dormant in them; it just needed to be awakened. What about youth that grew up under socialism, that did not have any religious education, and Christian upbringing in the family was washed away by the atheism of society that was interwoven with practical materialism?

Also, young people are meeting God at Kurescek. Let me tell you about a young person involved with sports.

I was hearing confessions at Kurescek.

A young man approached me. He was silent for a long time, in front of me. Startled I said to him, "Did you come to the confession?" "I do not know how to say a confession," he replied.

I told him to go to his parish priest to teach him about it. He went to see his parish priest and who told him to enroll into Chatechumnal studies.

He could not attend the studies because of his conflict with his professional sports training.

I advised to him to find a priest who could personally prepare him for the sacraments. He found me even though he did not know me by my name. Later, six others followed from various professions who were only baptized.

• So Kurescek became an important chapter of your life. Surprising supernatural events have not ceased happening for you. When did you observe the blood from Christ's wounds on yourself for the first time? Did you receive any explanation at that time? Did you get all the wounds at the same time?

I have never said myself that these are Christ's wounds. It is not my wish that others talk or write about them in this manner. It is the truth that I have wounds. You can see them here on my forehead, now they are closed. They form a crown around my scalp.

• When did this start?

On September 17, 1987, I was accompanying my sick wife at the Atomic Toplice health spa in the village of Podcetrtek. One day I took here to the spa bath, where she received a whirlpool bath. After twenty minutes I came back to pick her up. When my wife saw, she was frightened and asked, "What happened to you did you fall?"

"No."

"Did anybody hit you?" Did you bump into anything?"

"No," I said impatiently, "Why are you asking?"

"You are all bloody."

Until then I did not know about the blood, when I was praying earlier I felt a burning sensation around my head. I thought I had a headache. Then I brushed my forehead with my hand and to my surprise I saw blood.

The blood was not pouring but dripping slowly. For a few months I was walking around with a bloody head. A few days later on October 2, 1987 I got the wounds on my feet, then on my hands, after that on my shoulders and the last one on my chest.

You are asking about the suffering from these wounds. I would not like to talk about that. Although I can say that suffering is one of my spiritual callings, charisms, if you will.

I was told, "Until the end of your life you will have periods of suffering on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday evenings."

These trials last about one hour and a half sometimes more sometimes less. The pain is less when the wound is open than when it is closed.

The wounds open up by rotation for two or three months sometimes for six. Until now I have had eight physical examinations by physicians, as requested by the commission formed by the archbishop.

The commission has the results of all the physical examinations. For six hours I was interviewed and recorded onto tape. The archbishop, who is still awaiting the recommendations from the commission, received the summary of the transcripts.

I do not know if the recommendations were ever made.

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• You can not talk about the suffering caused by your stigmata. Is what I have heard true that this suffering is joined with a special kind of joy?

Some, among them priests, expressed an opinion that it is impossible that I experience the greatest joy in the midst of the greatest suffering. By my humble opinion, they would have to think what St. Paul said, "Superabundo gaudio in omni tribulatione mea - In my suffering I am overflowing with joy."

• This is outside of the boundaries of human psychology that we learn at school. I have another question. How do you view the religious situation in Slovenia today? Do you get any statements of this in your visions? You are mentioning "dark forces."

The Virgin Mary has mentioned numerous times the dark forces that are penetrating the universal Church. The church in Slovenia is included to the penetration of dark forces even if the religious situation is not the worst here.

For example here in Zalog there live 900 people, two hundred and fifty attend the Sunday Mass, which is pretty good.

Anyway, there is evil working. The reverberation of evil forces is especially felt from Austria and Italy. The main danger comes from Free Masons, even though they seem to be very friendly towards the Church.

• For us ordinary Christians faith is faith - an ocean of mystery, you can see only a piece of its coast in a foggy dawn of rationality. For you Father Smaverski, that is how Gospa (Virgin Mary) wants us to call you and not mister, faith is so to speak an experience. Do you still have to believe after you have seen?

It is true that I have nice experiences behind me, but all that is far from perfect, which God prepared for those that love him: that which the eye has not seen and the ear has not heard and the heart has not felt. True I received a lot. I especially cherish that I was drawn near Mary, God's messenger.

• It will not sound good to you, I will not say humility because I do not like the word, but to your genuiness which means the same, If I express my lay, and because of that not very important opinion, that in your case we are talking about a privilege from heaven that for the first time in history has been given to a Slovenian as I know.
  
  Maybe this is a gift added to the one of our national resurrection. Our nation is too pragmatic on one side and too dechristianized on the other to appreciate and to value this privilege. In addition, there is our inferiority complex. Even a stigmatist is valued only if he is a foreigner.
  
  Do you think that it would be different in some other nation? For example a well-known Catholic thinker and a member of the French Academy of Science, Jean Guitton, wrote a book about a French visionary Marta Robin.

Mary answered this question in an already mentioned message of January 4, 1997:

"The faithful of Slovenia responded well to the first calls and offered themselves. The church of Kurescek was built quickly; even unbelievers have to be amazed. Eagerness should continue but it has started to diminish"

Otherwise, pilgrims are coming to Kurescek from Canada, USA, Australia.

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• In this message I see an accusation that I think is harsh and will cause a well know objection of the Church that the Mother of God can not be against Bishops.

As for myself I remember the words of Maritain that the sentence, "Mulier taceat in Ecclesia-Women in the Church should remain silent," does not include Mary.

Also in the apparitions at La Salette, which were accepted by the Church, Mary said some harsh words on the account of the clergy of those times A part of the message that I am referring to says,

"Before the beginning of the war I was calling for a year in Medjugorje for you to atone for your sins, to reconciliate, be the carriers and givers of peace, but the majority did not respond. Millions of faithful from all over the world made pilgrimages to Medjugorje, but the local Church did not move and accept my call. Only individuals and my sons, Franciscans, heard the call of "Gospa" and even they were humiliated and belittled by the local clergy."

What would you add to this?

I would say that Mary's accusation was not expressed on the account of the whole Catholic Church, but was only meant for the local Croatian church.

Slovenians had a different point of view of the Medjugorje events.

Even if Slovenian Bishops signed certain declarations and the hierarchy prohibited the pilgrimages to Medjugorje, they did not prevent their priest from leading pilgrimages to Medjugorje.

• I find it very interesting and somewhat warmly Catholic, that in your gallery of visions we are meeting some great Slovenian Christians that have already moved from earthly Slovenia to eternity.

It is extremely interesting to me that as I recall that there is among these also a man who was our contemporary and who had to as a Christian and as a Bishop live the Calvary of Slovenian communism.

In my mind is Archbishop Rozman's successor Archbishop Vovk.

Mary did not mention only Bishop Vovk, she also showed him to me at Kurescek.

It was on March 1, 1990. When she was speaking - her message was for the priests - in the background on Mary's left there appeared a figure of Bishop Vovk that was floating above the ground just like Mary.

She slightly turned toward the figure and pointed to it with her left hand and said,

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"Bishop Aton Vovk prayed a lot and cared so that the church would have enough priests. He was worried for his priests because of the dangers of that time, which is why he is their intercessor in heaven. Turn to me and to him with your intercessory petitions for the priestly vocations and for various dangers and distresses and trials of priests."

Mary remembered Bishop Vovk again on October 4, 1994 when she said in a vision at Kurescek,

"I am asking all my children to pray, to fast and to atone with love for the sins against love. Address your petitions for priests to Bishop Vovk and petitions for yourself also."

In February 1991 Mary asked the faithful to gather in the sanctuaries consecrated to her and pray for peace and reconciliation through the whole month of May. She said,

"Pray, pray throughout the whole month of May!"

Truly, many people were gathering in the churches. Masses of people poured to Kurescek.

In June the war started. For Slovenia it lasted ten days.

Is it possible to seriously think that those few guns chased away a brilliantly equipped army that later grinded Bosnia for years?

Could not this army have ground Slovenia into dust if there was no special protection from God?

• What would you recommend for today's Slovenian Christians?

Nothing else but what Mary said. Live the Gospel and messages that God is sending to you through me.

And the answer that Mary gives and not me, says stay faithful to your promises that you have given to God and your fellow man.

That is the vows of the holy baptism, the vows of the sacraments of marriage, the vows of priesthood and religious life and everyday prayer from the breviary.

As far as preaching goes, I myself would give this instruction to the priests that they should kneel in adoration of the Holy Eucharist for as long as they plan to preach later.

• How can I omit in this interview the theme that is existing among us for years now, that is reconciliation. I myself am afraid that there is never going to be a reconciliation. That to the end of the history, the non-Catholic side will rebuke the Catholic side with nazi collaboration. The Catholic side will rebuke the non-Catholic side with communism and its crimes. What do you say about this?

Reconciliation that some people have in mind is not possible. When we talk about the time of war, we have to admit that there were crimes on both sides. War is a dance of the devil, regardless of the fact who is playing the accordion.

For the crimes after the war, there is no right word. There should be a public recognition of the faults. The dead should have the right to be pronounced dead and to be remembered with monuments that no one would dare to vandalize.

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• Should we end with the theological morsel? You were interested in dogma? In this interview you mentioned the dark forces that are penetrating the church. Even though some theologians doubt the existence of Satan or negate its existence.

Satan exists. He is powerful and cunning, but cowardly. He is afraid of Christ. He is the most frightened if I say to him, "I command you in the name of the Blood of Jesus be gone!"

• One would say that you have to deal with him, also physically?

Physically not but I do sense him. Otherwise, everyone that is trying to be holy is more of Satan's target than someone that is not interested in God.

• Therefore, you believe in angels also?

Certainly.

• We have to finish. You have a visitor.

Yes, my schoolmate, who was once a "domobranec" that I told you about.

The one who was my guide in "Kocevski Rog" when I went to say the Mass, a returned emigrant from Australia, where he was working on a hydropower plant at Snow Mountains.

The reconciliation between us has been realized.

The interviewer was Professor Alojz Rebula.

The interview was translated by Andrej and Tereza Bevec

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